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 Subiectul mesajului: Alternative Mid-bass
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 6:12 pm 
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I've been considering some other options to the twin 12" folded horn. What I've come up with is a twin 15" straight horn not dissimilar to the X-tro in a way, but I propose building it as an MT102 on steroids.

The ply bending method is an easy way to get a nice smooth flare. Both drivers would be mounted at the back facing forwards as close together as possible. The throat would be a slit about 10cm wide with the volume of the cone and baffle forming the front BP-Horn chamber. The rear of the drivers could be mounted such that the voice coils can be vented out of the back of the cabinet.

The mid section can then be either co-axially mounted, or above the mid-bass.

I think this method would make for a more musical mid-bass by eliminating the folds, and possibly allow for a higher cross to the mids, maybe 4-500Hz, taking the strain off the 6/8". How low it will play will depend on how deep you can afford to make your cabinet. 50cm horn length would allow a comfortable cross at 120Hz I think, maybe lower.

And the driver of choice? Good news here: SN15B.

Another idea I've had is to make the cabinet from a frame with panels rather than a solid box. Side panels could be made from 12mm ply if they don't form part of a chamber. Only the rear chambers need to be made from 18mm ply, or possibly even braced 12mm for those.

Feel free to slate!


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 6:33 pm 
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maybe we could model the P-audio WN-15S too

It's a verry hornloadable driver in my opinion :wink:

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ing. Mircea Bartic
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Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
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www.poweraudio.ro
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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 6:53 pm 
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The sims say yes! BL a little lower than SN15B but Hornresp seems to think it would be better (sensitivity, low extension etc). Any ideas on price vs SN15B? Not seen Winner series price lists yet.


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 6:56 pm 
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here in Romania I sell it for about
100 Pounds
150 $ US
130 Euro

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 7:26 pm 
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Will have to contact PAP about UK prices.

Bit OT but on the subject of co-axial mounting of horns: What effect do you think it would have if the mid horn met the flare of the mid-bass horn 2/3 of the way along the its path (ie set the mid horn back into the cab rather than have the mouths level. Only on the sides. The mid-bass flare would extend the mid flare, but only horizontally. I'm thinking a 40cm wide x 20cm high 8" mid horn mounted maybe centrally in the mid-bass horn.

Edit: Oh dear, it seems I'm designing something the size of an Opus AT2000!


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Dum Dec 11, 2005 8:17 pm 
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That probably won't afect the response semnifically, I think that it will act like a longer horn for the mid section (how long, I can't tell, It seeems Were ging to discover a lot of new things about horn design during this project, At least I have :D )

The opus thingy is a "bit" large :roll:

I would need something that could be stacked with maximum 2 persons, Ideally with just one, (myself) wihount danger of back injuries.

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mar Dec 13, 2005 4:27 pm 
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It may be coming out the size of an AT2000 but I'm fairly confident I can beat the 150kg weight! Two neo 15" instead of four ferrite 10" will make a start. Using thinner wood in non-critical areas will also definitely improve things.

I think if I'm taking out that big a box, I won't be doing it without some hired muscle. I'd be happy with a comfortable 2 man lift (up to 70kg probably ok).

I reckon two 15" drivers on a straight 60cm horn will really kick hard. With the WN15S you get f3@90Hz with continuous SPL of 135dB (at rated RMS power).


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mar Dec 13, 2005 5:20 pm 
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135 with one speaker, i presume

ok, I think a maximum of 70Kg would be manageable

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ing. Mircea Bartic
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Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mar Dec 13, 2005 6:11 pm 
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The 135dB is actually with both drivers, it does seem a little low but maybe just due to the low power handling (300W) of the WN15S. Sensitivity is 110dB/W with both drivers which certainly isn't that low.

I am wondering if this way of doing it might just be a little on the big side for a box which will only play to 80Hz @ -6dB. Would probably sound good tho.

As an aside, been at a few gigs the last few days using d&b Q series boxes. A lot of noise from some very small boxes. :?


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mar Dec 13, 2005 6:53 pm 
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110 - 1W
113 - 2W
116 - 4W
119 - 8W
122 - 16W
125 - 32W
128 - 64W
131 - 128W
134 - 256W
137 - 512W

so about 138 dB continuous with 600W/pair

this the theoreticaly SPL when calculated with 110 dB/1W

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mar Dec 13, 2005 11:52 pm 
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Not sure about values from Hornresp for sensitivity now. 2.83V is for 1W into 8R nominal, using 2 drivers we might need to adjust that value to 2V to give 1W into 4Ohms. P=(V*V)/R

If this is right, then the sensitivity is nearer 107dB/W which is more inkeeping with similar boxes.

I'm now torn between this and the twin 12". The 12" solution might come out smaller and lighter but more difficult to build and could have a more limited usable range.

Although I haven't heard them for a while, one of my mates has some Martin Blackline H3's. They are very similar to what we're looking to do but they use a single folded 15" and a 10" to go down to meet it. http://www.martin-audio.com/ (there isn't a direct link sorry)


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mie Dec 14, 2005 12:01 am 
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something does not seem right here, the horn gain is way to small

WN-15S has over 100dB SPL@1W
P-audio quotes 102.2dB@1w

12" will mean a longer horn path, so in the end we might find ouselves using the same size of the box as in the 15" version (nothing is free :) )

there are so many designs in my head right now, and on tthe forum, it's hard to settle on a single one

I was going to build the doppia clone, but now i'm not so sure

in my head right now there's a battle
Size Vs SPL

Doppia - relatively small, slot loaded midbass and SPL near 135dB Cont
X-tro or something similar (this project) - full horn loaded - 137-140dB cont

_________________
ing. Mircea Bartic
Director general

Poweraudio Romania
Str. Gheorghe Sincai, Nr.26 Bistrita
Telefon: 0766332366
E-mail: office@poweraudio.ro
www.poweraudio.ro
facebook.com/poweraudio.romania


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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Mie Dec 14, 2005 12:18 pm 
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a local system has some things that look like diy blacklines with a porn horn mid section, very strange. i also think they are a bit bigger than the martins, possibly already on the cusp of what you'd be happy hoiking up onto some bass bins.

i was surprised by the crossover of 2k in the blacklines, i was expecting the phase ball to push the useable response up a bit higher than that.

james.

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 Subiectul mesajului:
MesajScris: Joi Dec 15, 2005 11:40 pm 
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@ James, I thought 2k was a bit low for a 1" CD on that sort of box too. The phase ball isn't complicated at all, a fairly simple phase plug really.

You may have noticed I'm having difficulty seperating what I'd like to build and what I could actually make use of once I've built it.
I'm starting to wonder if I'd be better looking at building a small arrayable box (ie use two for most gigs) rather than a massive arrayable box (would often only need one, hence not useful to be arrayable). I've got to build something which might actually be useful to me and earn its build costs!

Maybe just a single 15" in a config as proposed earlier with a coaxially mounted 6" and 1" would do me. There are some really nice 6" midrange drivers around from RCF and 18Sound. Then again, 18Sound also do a nice 10" midrange for a possible Blackline copy.....


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 Subiectul mesajului: Alternative mid-top!
MesajScris: Vin Dec 16, 2005 5:14 am 
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Hi, I am new at this forum I think you are going in the right direction for this mid-top project. I too am a fan of the Funktion One speakers and I think that 18Sound have some great drivers and I can get them here in Asia at fairly good pricing. Although the double 15 straight horn would just be a copy of the X-tro's basic design I would rather use 2 twelve inch in neos to keep the box fairly light and a 6" and 1" neos as well. But thats only a suggestion the 2 twelves would catch up with the 6" fairly well in the 6-7-800 Hz and a x-over up to 4-5.0kHz to the 1" neo in a tight pattern of 30X30 or even 40X40. Also what do you think of having a fiberglass mid-horn with a phase plug for the 6" driver and have it produced cheaply by a Chinese manufacturer, I have a couple of contacts in China that can do the f/g work for this mid-top. And would probably cost less than half of a 12" 18Sound neo. Keeping this mid-top light should also be a prime concern as I do sometimes a one man show were I have with me a roadie :wink:


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